The Art of Independent Fatherhood
Welcome to "The Art of Independent Fatherhood," the podcast dedicated to empowering and guiding single dads on their unique journey. Join me, certified coach Jay Rush as I explore the challenges and triumphs of independent fatherhood, offering practical advice, heartwarming stories, and expert insights to help you navigate single fatherhood with confidence.
The Art of Independent Fatherhood
An Interview with Coach Luke Shillings: Single Fatherhood, Infidelity, and the Journey to Recovery
Have you ever asked yourself how single fathers navigate through challenges and manage the delicate balance between love, duty, and personal growth? Join us as we talk to Luke Schilling, an independent father from the UK, who shares his inspiring journey of single fatherhood and co-parenting. Luke opens up about his triumphs and struggles, emphasizing the crucial role routines play in nurturing his children post-divorce. From being a father, son, partner, and brother, to becoming a general manager in a manufacturing firm, Luke shares how he found fulfillment and purpose in his unexpected role.
We take a deep look into the complex world of infidelity, a heart-wrenching reality many relationships face. As a relationship and infidelity recovery coach, I share insights from personal and professional experiences, shedding light on the painstaking process of rebuilding trust. We explore the reasons behind infidelity, the self-blame that often accompanies betrayal, and the importance of understanding the core needs behind desires. This conversation is an empathetic affirmation that you are not a victim—you have the power to rebuild, understand, and heal.
The conversation takes a more serious tone as we tackle the impact of infidelity on children and the intricacies of co-parenting post-betrayal. We discuss the importance of self-care in relationships, the role of genuine communication, and the value of finding fulfillment within oneself. We underline the vital work of alignment and trust within ourselves and how this inner harmony manifests in our relationships with others. Wrapping up our conversation, we delve into the world of coaching and its profound impact on navigating infidelity issues. More than just a conversation, this episode is a journey towards understanding, growth, and healing.
See what Jay is up to at Jay Rush Coaching!
Hey guys, welcome to the Art of Independent Fatherhood, the podcast dedicated to empowering and guiding single dads on their unique journey. Join me, certified coach Jay Rush, as I explore the challenges and triumphs of independent fatherhood, offering practical advice, real stories and expert insights to help you navigate single fatherhood with confidence. Hey guys, I've got a great episode for you today. I've got my friend and colleague, luke Schilling Schillings Luke Schilling's from the UK on. Hey Luke, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do and kind of what started you off on this journey for better or for worse? Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for having me on, jay. So I always find this such a funny question to answer. It's like you know, who am I, who am I doing? And of course I feel like I can answer that for about 100 different perspectives, and predominantly, I think I would consider myself as a father and a son, but probably before anything else, and then on top of that I'm a partner and a brother and a variety of other familial connections.
Speaker 2:I spent most of my life not knowing what earth it was I wanted to do with my life and in turn then looked externally and tried to follow the path of others, you know, some just through peer connections, some through society's expectations, and that's resulted in me, I suppose, always being able to do things that I quite enjoy. I've probably naturally quite a jack of all trades. I've been able to be pretty good at most things that I plan myself to, which is useful, I can't deny that and it can be very rewarding as well, because it means I can fit into a lot of slots. I did notice, I suppose, in some respects, that that also meant that I would sometimes fit into a lot of slots. I would mold and almost chameleon in like, certainly in my earlier years to fit different groups of people and different societal and connections, but anyway, so that's a separate element, I suppose.
Speaker 2:But ultimately I have done a wide variety of jobs, everything. I spent 16 years in hospitality. I have my own online business. I then bought a pub and restaurant, bed and breakfast, which I ran for four years myself. I trained to be a driving instructor. I then worked in manufacturing for 10 years for the same company, starting just as a kind of a fabricator, working my way up to general manager eventually over that 10 year period, which was very rewarding in terms of like the job satisfaction, but there were all four small companies and there was kind of hitting the ceiling. For a combination of reasons. I never really fully felt fulfilled or like this was the thing that I wanted to do forever. I met my wife my now ex-wife in 2008, 2009. And a few years later we got married. We had a couple of children, bought a house, went down the stereotypical line that many of us do and enjoyed it. In all honesty, I loved being married. I loved that identity of fatherhood and family, man and everything that that encompassed.
Speaker 2:And then eight years into my marriage, my wife had an affair with a close friend of ours. In short, that ultimately led to separation and divorce and I ended up moving out of the family home Our children were three and six at the time and which sort of pretty much like wiped the slate clean in a lot of ways in terms of what I thought the rest of my life was going to look like. I thought I knew what the next five or 10 years looked like, at least when we were married, and I'd say I definitely defined myself as happily married. I mean, it wasn't a fault, free marriage, of course, and I was by no means perfect, but generally speaking I felt pretty good about it.
Speaker 2:So it did come as a bit of a shock and all of a sudden, all of the reasons that I was doing, the things that I was doing, sort of didn't exist anymore in terms of my geographical location. I no longer lived in the same area, or at least a bit further away. The reasons I had not sought other work was kind of because of the dynamic that we had. We both worked full time and it just so worked out that way. And then that sort of really left me on a place of like I don't know what comes next and I let the next sort of six months really just allow to allow myself to just like reset in some respects, to try and begin that healing process and not make any rash decisions or any significantly life changing decisions in that, in that sort of following six months after sort of separation and divorce.
Speaker 1:Were you co-parenting at the time?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, very actively co-parenting. In fact, we started that the moment we did the day. We decided that it was over like that. We were going to go a separate ways. So we happened to explore that in more detail if required.
Speaker 2:Once we'd made that decision, then for me it was really important to try and get a fixed routine in place for the kids. I don't think I've really I don't know why that was so important for me at the time. I think maybe it was a sense of control, like I just wanted to feel like I had some control over the situation, given that I just had what felt like all of the control taken away, like everything that I had just didn't exist anymore in a lot of ways, which probably wasn't totally true. It certainly felt that way at the time. So, yeah, so we implemented a routine pretty much from day one, even whilst we were still living together. I didn't just I didn't move out straight away for combination reasons and then once I did move out, that, yeah, that routine continued and still continues to this day and it's changed very, very little. We've made a couple of minor amendments, but generally speaking it's still yeah, which has been great, I think, for the kids. At least they know where they stand, they know when they see daddy, they know yeah, they just know what to expect. There's never any surprises or shocks, and there's actually a ton of other benefits from that as well. So, yeah, when I came out of that, I've been sort of longing and searching for something, not really knowing what, and I sort of stumbled across coaching, stumbled across this blonde lady in America called Brooke Castillo. She turned out to be the founder of the Life Coach School and I was.
Speaker 2:I was drawn in, I felt very validated by a lot of the things that I was listening to on the podcast at the time and it was really just about. This was a little bit. I was actually a little while after, probably a year to 18 months after we'd separated. Before this happened, I'd already done a big chunk of the healing myself anyway and sort of tried to figure it out for a combination of things. But I felt a lot of the stuff that I was then picking up and learning really validated that and supported it and strengthened it in ways that I probably not realized, and I started to explore myself deeper than I ever had, which was already pretty deep.
Speaker 2:I've always been fascinated with why people do the things they do. I've always been really interested in sort of psychology human psychology and ultimately ended up leading down the route of wanting to become a coach and help people. Initially, I actually set up as a co-parent coach. That was the target audience, if you like. They were my ideal avatar, but there was a deep longing to help those who have been betrayed simply because of the pain involved in that. So that's exactly what I do now now a relationship and infidelity recovery coach.
Speaker 1:So thanks for that. I know there's no such thing as a typical client, but if you were to create sort of a rubric for a client, what do these guys come to you with? What's the story? What are they trying to fix and solve?
Speaker 2:Awesome. In terms of who I target, I suppose, is probably who's my ideal client, the person that fits them all best. Of course, I have clients outside of this, but it would be someone not dissimilar to me. So someone in their 40s. They've been married, they've got kids, their partner has been unfaithful and they're now in a position where they're trying to decide how to move forward in their life Now, whether that be to remain in the relationship or to walk away from it Again, depending on also depending on what options are available for them. So, getting very clear on the decision about what it is they want and why they want it.
Speaker 2:Of course, the biggest impact that everybody experiences when they have been betrayed is this, this breaking trust.
Speaker 2:So it starts with trying to figure out how do I trust my partner if they've chosen to stay, which then moves on to how do I trust others if they move into other relationships going forward?
Speaker 2:Are they going to carry this pain from this situation and take it into new relationships and then always assume living that sort of state of paranoia about expectation that the future partners are going to to portray them as well. Then you then start to question the trust in other things, not just people, actually other elements of life, you know, in society as a whole. They can send you that all kinds of individual rabbit holes, but what becomes apparent quite quickly is this recognition that you no longer trust yourself, you no longer trust your judgment, because ultimately, when you've trusted somebody, you have chosen to trust them, and once you begin to realize that that trust has been broken, then you feel somewhat responsible for actually putting all your eggs in that basket, so to speak. So that's probably the most key thing that we work on to begin with is is how to rebuild that self trust and then send it back out into the world.
Speaker 1:So when man experience that, when you experience that, is it almost like I'm such a fool for trusting that person.
Speaker 2:Exactly like that. Yeah, so there's a fall for trusting it. How didn't I see it? What did I do wrong? What could I have done differently? You know what is the affair? Partner got the idea and there's lots of judging and comparison and very, very and of course everybody's story is slightly different. But yes, this initially is like I'm the problem, even though it's the other person, even though the other person has done the thing, I must be the problem, because how could they do that to me?
Speaker 2:Right, and that belief that they think they've done it to them, when actually the reality is, more often than not it's very rarely actually about the betrayed partner at all. The unfaithful partner has not even realized they've got something missing in their life half the time and then some bright light comes on and they've come, you know, focused on it. It's a bit like a, you know, a mosquito in the dark or a moth in the dark always goes to the right light and it's you know they don't. But when the light is off, they just quite happily fly around in the dark. They don't know any different light comes on and all of a sudden they're drawn to it, and I think it can often be like that for those who do stray is that they don't feel fulfilled in some way in their relationship. Maybe they don't know how to communicate or even how to articulate it, or maybe they're afraid of that because they recognize that. You know they have built this family, they've built this, they've got children, they've got the house, they've got finances tied together, sometimes people in business together. There's some complicated ties involved and the fear of being responsible for untangling all that in an upfront way like let's have a conversation about it, let's talk about it.
Speaker 2:I'm not happy. How can we fix this? Because that requires living into the discomfort. It requires really digging. It's hard, you know it's not easy to do these things, particularly because most people have never been taught how to set healthy boundaries, how to communicate in that way, unless they've witnessed it from, you know, great parents or peers in their lives. Generally speaking, most people can't handle that and, much like somebody who is struggling with maintaining their health and their fitness, they're drawn more to the chocolate and the candy and the sweets and the Netflix than they are the gym and the healthy food. Well, this is kind of the same. There's that short-term dopamine hit they get from having a certain element being fulfilled by the affair partner. Just the attention, sometimes just having someone show interest in a particular thing. Maybe you've got a very specific hobby or common interest that aligns, that lights you up in a way that your primary partner doesn't, and so of course this doesn't happen overnight.
Speaker 1:So in some ways you're showing your male clients that there is a path towards sort of empathizing with Very much so, and again that's painful because, you're the one that's been hurt and the other person has done it to you.
Speaker 2:That's how you are the victim.
Speaker 1:That's how you want to identify, how many men want to hear that at first.
Speaker 2:Well, I think men like labelling themselves as a victim, and I also don't believe that they want to actually admit that they're not a victim, which is quite interesting. Interesting, tell me more. So, on the one hand, by labelling themselves as a victim, is admitting that they have made some poor judgment and somebody else has taken advantage of them, they've taken them through a fall, they've had that rug pull them under the feet and they weren't expecting it. And to admit to being betrayed can bring up a lot of shame in people because they've not lived up to their own expectations. What will other people think? And the moment they have that sort of they feel like a victim, then that highlights all of that. However, that's usually quite short lived, and then there's this recognition that actually hang on.
Speaker 2:I didn't do any of this. This is the other person. They've made the choice. Even if I wasn't the perfect husband, ultimately it's still my wife or my partner that's actually chosen to be unfaithful, and that is the case. It's always a choice on the part of the person who's being unfaithful. It's never the person who has been betrayed who is responsible for the affair. No matter what they've done, no matter how bad a husband or wife you are. It does not justify or quantify a reason for betrayal.
Speaker 1:That's got to be a long road, especially when you have like, like you said, you have all your eggs in one basket, Like you love somebody unconditionally. You have a clear understanding of the contract, right, and that establishes some very it seems like mutual expectations for the relationship. And that's really where betrayal comes from right. It's the breaking of the promise.
Speaker 2:It is so, and that's a very interesting point. It's like well, okay, so in a long term relationship, when was the last time you discussed the contract? Right, the contract remained the same. Do things change? Are you the same person you were the day you got married? Are you the same person you were the day that you proposed? You know, a lot has changed. People change, people are complicated and people interpret the same thing differently. So what might have been? I mean okay? I'm pretty sure that we all understand that betrayal in a monogamous relationship is usually something. It's kind of an unwritten rule in that sense. However, many of the rules and things that lead up to betrayal are often not clarified as well, like what are the dynamics? When are those things communicated? So, if we think about the traditional pattern of a relationship, two people meet all of the sex emotions. Everything's going on. Yeah, everything's going on inside.
Speaker 2:You know the chemicals are pumping. All you know the endorphins and the dopamine, and it's all pumping around like crazy. And you're in that honeymoon period and it's exciting, and it's fun and it's new and it's exciting and you don't want to do anything to disturb it by establishing ground rules Exactly.
Speaker 2:And also just think about and this happens in the online dating world as well you go on to your tinders and the various other dating apps that there are and what are people doing?
Speaker 2:Well, they're presenting their best self and they're hiding.
Speaker 2:They're not making really that much conscious attention to highlight their flaws, let's say, which makes sense, of course.
Speaker 2:But when you're in that early stage of courting unless you're very, very secure, of which many people are not, because they're often trying to people, please, they're trying to, you know, put on good impression, first impressions, and all that is what we're taught and I'm not saying there's no truth to that, of course but when we're doing that and we're portraying that positive image to begin with, actually quite a bit of time can pass and a certain assumptions are made, and that's often the case, and those assumptions often come from what, either? What we've seen our parents, what we've seen on TV, what we've seen in our friends and family, what we've society as a whole has imprinted on us in some way. It's like we're assuming that our partner has the exact same set of expectations, has the exact same set of rules, and actually a lot of these things aren't really truly clarified, and one of great examples, I think, has been with the influx of social media in the last sort of 15 years particularly.
Speaker 2:I mean I remember this on Facebook specifically that you would often see people that I've known and thought I knew pretty well not necessarily romantic partners, but just people in general and they behave in a way online that's very different to how I would perceive them in person. Maybe they've got much more extreme political views or anything. Things become more polarized and it's interesting. So now that there's like a bit of a wall to hide behind, other parts of that person are coming out, other parts are on display, and I think the same is true within the beginning of a romantic relationship. We show our best bits. We keep the other bits hidden, and even if one partner does spot something that maybe is like a little bit iffy, a little bit of something, well let's just put that to the side because the good bits are so good.
Speaker 1:Okay. So a lot of this lends itself towards like wishful thinking. Right, like we're in a relationship, we hope that things will go well, and then we start to ignore red flags because we have this premise of wishful thinking. Like you want things to work out best. Where do you see in working with your clients, where do you see a correlation with like past trauma and your willingness to ignore red flags? Like there's more fear of being alone?
Speaker 2:I think it's absolute direct correlation. Direct, and I think the more I as to the training I've gone through through my own personal experience, through that of the conversations I have with my clients. You know we spent the first 18 years of our lives being traumatized and then we spend the next 60 of them trying to figure out how to work for it, because generally seems to be the pattern, something along those lines. And of course we're all affected by trauma in some way and I think trauma gets her a mislabelling in some respects. I think people think that trauma has to be a very significant event. Actually that's not true.
Speaker 2:Trauma is the response, is your individual nervous systems response to a given situation. Two people can experience the same thing. One can have a traumatic nervous response and the other person cannot. If that cycle is not completed, if they're not supported, if they're not allowed to be able to process that, that trigger in the moment, then it sticks with them. It's like a memory on the nervous system that may lie dormant for years.
Speaker 2:But then we get into relationships, we follow patterns that we've, we mirror patterns that we've seen and emulated in our parents and in other key primary figures in our lives. Then when our partner acts in a particular way that maybe just triggers that, then that can cause us to respond in a particular way. Sometimes it is very much vital flight, sometimes it is more of a fawn or freeze response and we tend to withdraw from the situation. We don't want to face the conflict. We notice that thing.
Speaker 2:The red flag let's say A red flag on its own doesn't mean end the relationship. It just means this is something that's worth paying attention to. Maybe we should talk about it, maybe we should figure out how to resolve this. Maybe this is something that, if I don't challenge this now, it's going to gradually build resentment over the course of our relationship to the point where eventually it overflows, one of us explodes or we give ourselves a raise. It's often the little bits that happen over time, but of course, the most damage. I think a good example of that would be through the idea of compromise. Most people went there in conflict with each other, or one of the most. There's the option to fight, of course, and that usually doesn't end well. Then the option to run away. You're not going to remain in a long-term relationship if you keep running away all the time.
Speaker 2:Most people just ignore it and they don't process it and they don't allow it. The best combination they can come up with is compromise. A great example of this is if one person wants something and the other person wants something different. Let's imagine that, for example, maybe let's say J, that you want me to. Let's say we're in the same location together and we've decided that you want to do some what I consider a dangerous activity and I want to stay at home and surf the internet, for whatever reason, something like that. You're like we're going to do it, we really want to do it. You can't stay here and I'm like no, but I really don't want to go. This is not good.
Speaker 2:We eventually end up doing what we would agree is a compromise. So the compromise might look like that I come with you but you do the activity, and maybe I'll watch and take photos or something like that. But really I want to be at home doing my work, because I've got this particular job that I want to finish. Plus, I don't want to be stood there watching you potentially killing yourself in some life-threatening activity or whatever Bungie jumping or something. Yeah, exactly, yes, extreme, something like that. So you have this desire to do the thing, so this puts you at, say, 100, and I have this lack of desire to do that thing which puts me at zero.
Speaker 2:Now, compromise is you giving a little bit and me accepting a bit more, and you giving a bit more and me accepting a bit more, and eventually we get to a point where we are 50-50, which is what we're defined as meeting in the middle.
Speaker 2:But of course, with 50-50, 50-50 is still only 100. So in the context of a relationship, we've not actually actively moved forward. I've had to be in a little bit of discomfort. So, for example, I've had to come with you to satisfy your need, and you've maybe compromised on the fact that, rather than going for three hours or whatever it was, we're only going to go for an hour because I want to get back to do some work. You've had to also compromise, so we're both giving a little bit. So what that means is for us to succeed in a relationship, then we both have to be in a little bit of discomfort every time we come across conflict to be able to move forward. Now, isolated incidents cause no problem at all, but when you start having to carry a little bit of resentment every time your partner or your friend wants to do something that you don't want to and you compromise. Then you add that up over days, weeks, months, years, decades and you get two people that actually hate each other.
Speaker 1:So that's what I was going to ask is the downside of compromise, the downside of saying, hey, I have no interest in this, but I'm glad that you do, I'm not going to participate? And how do both parties honor that decision?
Speaker 2:So well, first thing is what's actually the core of the desire? So maybe your desire might be actually you just want to spend time with me, you just want connection, you just want to have shared experiences. Maybe it would help you feel part of something it's like. Well, what is that core need? It's being displayed as I want to go and do bungee jumping. So that's the core need.
Speaker 1:You want to understand what's behind the request.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and then the same. For me, my poor need might be. Well, I want to be safe, and that safety could come from either I don't want either of us to die, or it could be by me doing my work. Maybe I believe that that's going to earn me more money, which gives me more financial safety. Again, what's the core underlying Now? Once we can highlight those, well, we can talk about them, and then you can start to work towards some shared thing that actually satisfies both, without actually having to give anything.
Speaker 1:So maybe, like on the term call, maybe I won't join you for the bungee jumping, but when you come back and I'm done with work, we can go do something that we both enjoy, we both share some time together. Exactly that's what you're asking for, and I don't.
Speaker 2:You don't resent me for not coming and I don't resent you for going. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you another question In the context of infidelity and your clients who have decided to move on from their previous partner. I know we don't control this as coaches, because we see clients get into relationships when they're really not ready, and then we see clients who wait a very long time or never get into it when they're perfectly capable of doing so. So, in a perfect test environment, what would a client have to understand about themselves to be able to move into another relationship with that level of trust for the other person or for themselves? What do they need to learn?
Speaker 2:Well, everything that we've just spoken about, this idea of, we've spoken about compromise, but the core of that is about one person trusting the other. So, for example, it's about me trusting you that you've got my best interests at heart when you go and do your activities, because it's making you fulfilled, which makes you show up better, or whatever that is, and you've got you believe that my best, my actions, are having your best interests at heart. Therefore, I'm going to work hard and try and support the family or the dynamic or whatever the setting is when we think about that internally, because we all have different parts. So when we have these internal conflicts, part of me wants to do this, or part of me thinks that, or part of me feels that. I think we're all familiar with that kind of language and we've all experienced that, where you kind of want to do two things at once, but they're both in conflict with each other.
Speaker 2:Well, if you imagine yourself sort of stood in a room, if you like, and you've got one part of you stood over at one side of the room facing the wall and you've got another part of you going at the other side of the room facing that wall, they both want to move away from each other. They both aren't looking at each other. They're definitely not talking to each other. So what do they trust each other? Well, no.
Speaker 1:When you use the parts terminology, is that from IFS or are you using that from a different context?
Speaker 2:So what actually? It turns out it is very similar to IFS.
Speaker 1:Okay, just curious.
Speaker 2:Yes, so interestingly, I've sort of come into my life having always seen the world that way. I'm recognizing that individual parts, and it's only more recent years that I've become more familiar with IFS and that again that's sort of like supported and aligned with much of what I'm demonstrating here.
Speaker 1:So for our listeners, we're talking about internal family systems, which is a modality of psychotherapy that was developed by a guy named Dr Richard Schwartz, and it talks about how it's the multi-mind model, which talks about the different parts of the mind. We have our whole self, we have our exile. Often, we have protectors and we have controllers, and they're all playing different roles to keep us safe and also keep us fulfilled.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly. So, yeah, you're right, we are talking in essence along those lines. Okay, cool, but for the purpose of what we're talking about here specifically, we're talking about whether two individual parts of us trust each other, right? So do they do? Those two parts, the one that wants to go and do this thing versus the one that wants to go and do that thing do they trust each other? And at the minute they don't, because they're not even looking at each other. They're facing it the way they're fighting their own battle, they're trying to get their own way. They're not communicating so much like the example we spoke about a moment ago.
Speaker 2:If you can start to talk to those internal parts and bear in mind that we, as we have a prefrontal cortex, we have the ability to choose and to talk to these internal parts of ours and get them to communicate with each other Well, what's at the core of the desire to do action A versus what's at the core of the desire to do action B, and then actually start to create like an internal dialogue, and that way we can start to trust ourselves, because then we no longer feel at conflict with each other. We recognize that everything is kind of working for us it's all pointing in the same direction. It's only because we're allowing this void to exist between this inner conflict that keeps us stuck. So to move into any kind of new relationship before, I would say that you wouldn't really be ready until you can truly begin to trust yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, diving into that a little bit like there's part A and part B, and one of the things that really resonated with me or at least it feels like this is where you go with this is that checking in with your motivation for your decisions or your behavior is the deeper work, because the motivation can be informed by an irrational fear, by an assumption, by a judgment predicated on a belief system. Yeah, and so by virtue of just asking those questions instead of letting those assumptions operate on their own merit, then you're learning something, and that informs the nuance of your decision-making, moving forward Exactly.
Speaker 2:Okay Creating. So I mean maybe this might help a little bit. Imagine a teacher in a classroom of misbehaving children. The children are all doing their own thing. They're not listening, they're causing trouble, they're noisy. A couple of them are fighting in the corner. They're clearly not concentrating, they're not doing anything, they're all just sort of doing their own thing. But over the period of the school term or semester, the teacher is able to guide these children. The ratio is able to listen to them and genuinely make them feel heard and understood. And teachers are the basis of how to communicate better and to collaborate with each other and to work as a team and ultimately align them. So they're all kind of pointing in the same direction.
Speaker 2:Now, of course, there's still gonna be days where one kid is gonna be, you know, kick up and have a fuss and, you know, cause some disruption.
Speaker 2:Maybe he's had a difficult time at home or maybe something else has gone on and he's exploded in some way.
Speaker 2:But because we've now got this new dynamic within the class, all of the other kids come together as like a supportive group and it's a bit like saying I've got you, it's like a support for that, so they can handle the one unruly kid that stands out, okay, so now we bring that back into the mind that we're like we've just been talking about.
Speaker 2:If you imagine that these different parts of your mind are all the unruly kids in the classroom and the prefrontal cortex, they're a bit that we choose to make our decisions with, that's the teacher. So we are now. We have the ability to talk to all of our students, our internal students, and allow them to be heard and let them feel listened and let them feel like they're part of something and that we're all working towards the same goal. And, yeah, as though you know the kids are having a bad day or whatever, but the rest of us, the rest of the parts of us, have got our back. So we're now all aligned, working in the same direction. So I think that's a good way of sort of taking it and making it a bit more understandable in that sense.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting because, as coaches, we act as that facilitator. Initially, very well said, but ultimately the idea is to teach our clients how to be that facilitator for themselves 100%.
Speaker 2:And the client has it there all along.
Speaker 1:All along.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's always been there. It's always been there, they just didn't realize.
Speaker 1:And that's what Schwartz refers to as the self, like the whole self. What's interesting about that? I love the analogy of the Unruly classroom, because you also have two alternatives to the extreme, which are like you walk into room and you say everybody shut up. Or you have the one where you're like I give up, I'm quitting this job, I'm not even putting in my resignation and both are evidently more harmful than sitting with the discomfort, taking the long view, facilitating the healing and the understanding for each of those different motivations and experiences.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think one of the real key elements and probably it's difficult to probably highlight it enough is that bit at the end where actually certain parts of you are still going to have bad days, and that's okay, because we tend to, once we head on this journey and we start to better understand ourselves and we get things more aligned. Well, often, what can happen is we then increase our expectations of how we think we should behave, and anytime we use that word should, must, anything along those lines it can actually give us, send us backwards very quickly, because we then believe that we're falling short of our own expectations, which is more excuse to beat us also, which is not useful, by the way.
Speaker 1:Well, that's really insightful because I know in my own journey relatively recent journey, I think, with consciously understanding my own anxiety, when I'm anxious and I'm judging the anxiety, it makes it 10 times worse. Like you should be anxious, you shouldn't be like this.
Speaker 2:You know, if I want to. I feel that because it's something I noticed with every single client. Everybody goes through this particular phase where they are like. It's like understanding is like the first step, you know, recognition of where they are, what their facts are in their situation, what, what things they can control versus what things they can't. That's the first step. Then it's a case of understanding why we're doing the things that we're doing and getting a better grasp on that and then taking a bit of control and starting to do some things intentionally.
Speaker 2:But of course, then we get that day where we don't quite meet newfound expectations and it feels like we've taken 10 steps backwards. Yeah, you know, but I actually think there was part of me I remember at one point thinking I'd love to be able to like delete that part of the process for my clients. But actually I think it's an essential part of the process because it's actually once you recognise the not the value, the lack of value in the word should, and how that plays a part in our lives and how we show up every day, and actually that's the almost, like the freeing, is the releasing factor that you then become unrestrained in terms of what you do, going forward because you're no longer confined by yours or anybody else's expectations.
Speaker 1:So in another way we're not aiming for perfection and like understanding that we're flawed and we're fallible and we make mistakes and that we have bad days and like owning that and, dare I say, like loving it, like loving that part of ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very much, actually embracing it and knowing that actually sometimes it's surprising what good comes from those places of discomfort.
Speaker 2:In fact, actually the most progress I've made in my life has been when I've been in the most discomfort but actually actively faced it head on, things that scare me, and that is literally pretty much how I live my life now. If some opportunity arises and it scares the hell out of me, then I say yes and then figure it out. If I allow the fear to stop me from committing to this new goal or task or challenge or whatever it may be, then I don't move forward. And yet with every single time, no matter how uncomfortable it is and it's uncomfortable, I'm not saying it gets any easier. You know that the anxiety can still exist to the same level. But just knowing that that discomfort actually can't hurt you Not really. It's very unpleasant to be in, I'm not going to pretend otherwise, and there's many, many techniques and things that you can use to help reduce that in the moment, but truly by embracing that intentionally rather than feeling a victim to it, makes all the difference in terms of how you show up and how you move forward in life.
Speaker 1:Let me shift gears for a second. When you have kids and you've been in a relationship where infidelity ended or affected, I'm going to say what should and instead. How do you recommend having those discussions with children, in what context, at what age? What's appropriate and when is it never appropriate?
Speaker 2:No, I mean, it's a good question and I don't think there's a lean cut answer. If you can have the discussion, whatever the discussion looks like, if you can have it together as a family, then I would recommend assuming that you and when I say as a family, I think you both parents, both parents and the children, whether you talk to the children all individually or as a group, that's a separate thing, and I think that really does depend on age, because there's going to be. For example, for me it was three and six at the time. Had there been 13 and 16 at the time, then the approach definitely would have been different.
Speaker 1:So you didn't really have an in-depth discussion at three and six.
Speaker 2:No, so we had a discussion, but the discussion was just really about the fact that mummy and daddy still cared about each other but were no longer in love with each other, and sometimes that happens. We would all like relationships to last forever, but sometimes they just don't. And rather than being together and being unhappy, we think we can actually do a better job by being separate and help us and still function as a family, even though it's going to be a different setting or dynamic to how it currently is. And, of course, my daughter was at an age where she at least understood to some level, whereas my son, he was three, much less so, and that's really probably again that we had different conversations with the two of them, because we're talking to them at very different levels.
Speaker 2:Do the kids need to know about the infidelity itself At that age? I would say no, I don't think there's any utility in it. I don't even understand. And given kids at that age, they still see you as the parents, as being like the pardon me was the Beall and Endall, I suppose, like the gods, their heroes, their role models. And I'm not sure, at that age, what utility. I mean, I'm sure somebody may think differently, but I'm not sure what utility there would be in dragging either parents through the mud, because like well, what's the motivation there? Is it just to make the trade partner feel bad? Is it to make them feel extra guilt? Is it to try and make the partner who has been betrayed feel better? It's like what you're actually trying to do here is that are you putting the kids' interests first? And I think if the answer is no to that, then you probably want to reconsider before you have that conversation.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and kids don't understand the context of infidelity at all, and at the very best.
Speaker 2:Most adults don't you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, at the very best, you've got your six-year-old at school going. Yeah, my mom and dad split up because my mom cheated on my dad. Yeah, exactly, and they're like what Well?
Speaker 2:yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:Now, of course, there's going to come a point in time where those conversations are going to have to be had. Yeah, and it's something that I'm consciously aware of, particularly given what I do now and because, particularly given that my content is available online and on social media and on YouTube and my podcast and all the things that it's only a matter of time before she my daughter, at least she's been the eldest that she understands and learns the details, potentially before we tell her it's a possibility. It's a possibility and there's definitely something that we have spoken about as parents, but it's, yeah, it's a difficult one to navigate and I don't think there's really a right or wrong answer.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting. I said cheating, which is like when you're having beers with a buddy, like that's the word you use. But what's the importance of language when having discussions like this? Like cheating has a lot of connotations.
Speaker 2:Oh, very much. So. Yeah, I mean even just the idea of betrayal and all this like well, what defines? What defines cheating, what defines infidelity? You know, people have very different ideas. First of all, what that even means. That's true, like that's one thing. And then yeah, exactly, there's a huge yeah, you know, is it just?
Speaker 2:is it just having a conversation with you know? Is it? You know? I've literally just been to an event this last couple of days, you know, stayed in the hotel, went out for dinner with a group of 10 people sat on a table. If I have a conversation with a woman and talking a bit too much, just, is that? Is that betrayal? Am I taking it over there? Is it just exchanging normal messages, like friendship message, is it? You know? Where is the line? You know, because it varies usually. Sometimes it's people are very comfortable with their partners going up and hugging and kissing on the cheek, but other people like no, that's the definite no, no, it's like where is that line drawn? So that in itself is a huge spectrum and, of course, with the advent of technology and all of the ways that you can communicate with people nowadays, it's very hard to really to pin it down. But it's created a lot more opportunity for for these kind of relationships to develop in a way that they previously, you know, wouldn't have done.
Speaker 2:But in terms of the yeah, I think when it comes to the kids, yeah, then I don't think cheating is probably the right word. Why not? So because cheating usually means well, I say usually means I'll be to help check the actual definition. So my, my, my immediate thought of whether, when I use the word cheating is thinking things like exams. You know, like you cheat on exams, so you have the information beforehand or you copy somebody else's work, you gain artificially in some way by not having, which isn't the same as a betrayal.
Speaker 1:But it's a moral judgment. Oh, it's a moral judgment, yeah. And when you suggest that somebody cheated, especially around children, what they hear is good and bad, potentially, yeah, and they hear mommy was bad right, which is shame inducing, it also it could. I think in theory you could, you could turn the child against the other parent.
Speaker 2:It's very possible if it's not handled carefully. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which, from my own perspective, like I would never want to do, that I would never want to say something to my son to make him think poorly of his mother.
Speaker 2:Likewise, but I'm in cross my mind but I'm not every man. No, he's very true. So I think this happens. This can happen either side. This is quite common in in parents that split up for any reason, that the kids can often be used as pawns in the relationship. And it's interesting thing I remember when, when, when I moved out, my wife remained in a relationship with the affair partner for about a year in total, and my daughter initially. There was times where she was sort of taking it upon herself to. She would come and come and stay with me and she would be like telling me things that was almost as though she was spying, a little bit like that in her own little way of however she was interpreting that situation.
Speaker 2:She obviously recognised that I have been upset at times. I tried to hide it as much as I can, but on the same note, I also didn't want to hide it so much so that, yeah, I don't know. It's again a difficult balance. I don't remember all the specific details, but I never actively wanted them to think bad of their mother.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But also, you know, the end of the day, I was upset that the relationship had come to an end and even though that is what had happened, I didn't want to pretend that it wasn't okay to be upset about something like that. I didn't want it to seem like I didn't care. So, of course, obviously, the emotion wasn't fate, because I really was upset about the thing. And so again, striking that balance, how good a job I did.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I've got no idea. I just know that if the kids have got questions, I'll always talk to them, no matter what, and I'll always have those conversations. And sometimes they may be a bit clunky and not go quite as well as I'd hoped or maybe, you know, they interpret something in a way that I hadn't expected or anticipated. And that's okay, because I can't control what they think and feel anyway, but just know, just allowing them to have a platform so that we can have those discussions, then I feel like I'm doing as good a job as I can as a parent to be supportive, and then that's all, yeah, and really that's my goal going forward, whatever, because I can't control what happens my daughter might find out tomorrow all the details without us, as parents, having told her upfront, and then she confronts us and, although that's not my ideal scenario, I would still act in a way that supported her in whatever way that I could, and I would imagine that her mother would do the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. It's hard to it's funny to use this word, but it's hard to divorce yourself from the idea of communicating nuance to people when you're a coach but you're also a human being. Yes, like, like I, I find that, at least from a coach's perspective, it keeps me honest. Like I know, I attempt not to indulge in destructive behaviors because I know, by having coached people for so long what those result in. Yep, that's sort of an aside, I guess.
Speaker 2:No, I think any action that's driven by a negative emotion generally doesn't lead anywhere positive.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know, if you're feeling angry, bitter, resentful, manipulative, whatever it is, if it's a generally what we might consider as an undesirable feeling and undesirable emotion, and the likelihood is that the actions that you take from that place will probably make things worse, not better, and I think it just knowing that alone, then it gives us the option to act or not.
Speaker 2:And even if it just means removing yourself from the situation, even just means going out for a walk, it's just give yourself that five minutes is whatever it takes, you know, and the phone call and the conversation, whatever it takes to prevent you from doing something that you maybe then later regret or just has some, you know, ultimate negative, negative impact.
Speaker 2:Now I find that as a useful beacon of, like a warning signal to myself that I know, if I keep acting from this place of frustration or anger or disappointment or whatever it is, that usually doesn't end well. Of course that does take practice, you know, because our chimp brains are very quick to act in the moment, they think they know best and we often don't get time to respond to it. But with practice you do get better, you know, and you can get on top of those things and you can preempt them and to the point where you've made the decision before you've experienced the emotion. But it requires intentional work and if you actually care about yourself, you know like you know if you really care about yourself and you actually put yourself at the top of the list, the top of the pile, then that does become easier Because you start prioritizing yourself.
Speaker 2:I think it was. I think it was Jordan Peterson, I think I heard first heard say it's like you know, treat yourself like somebody you really care about Most people don't. They try and manipulate other people or they try and care for the people. They tell themselves they're caring for the people and it's been the people pleasing, not actually putting themselves first. And the biggest shift for me, without doubt, was the day that I decided to prioritize myself over the children. That was the day that I then became the best version of myself and the best that I could be for the kids.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting. You say that I almost wasn't going to go there Because we're not in the business of shaming men for being cheated on. But there are behavioral changes that closely align with like identity and like people pleasing behavior. People pleasing behaviors one of those things that can invariably drive a wedge in a relationship and can can lead to infidelity. How do you tow that line between being like listen, it's not your fault, and people pleasing as a turn off or like this from behavior is kind of a turn off, you know?
Speaker 2:and so are we talking about, once you've reflected back on how you have behaved, to join? Because, because you get that balance of well, it's not my fault, right? Because I'm not responsible for the action of my partner. Yeah, I didn't cheat and that is true, like I stand by that from my perspective and from anybody else's perspective, the only person responsible for the betrayal is the person who did the betraying, and that is it.
Speaker 1:There were no exceptions and there's also that dichotomy that exists of like who was I in the relationship? Like I don't actually know where to go from there, but maybe you know where.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, so, okay, exactly. And now that? So, because we do reflect back and it's like, okay, the actual boundary that was crossed, the one that tipped it over the edge, that was like the no return, whatever that is. That was not on me, but every part of the relationship leading up to that, well, I did play a part in that. Was I paying attention? Was I being selfish? Was I focusing on this and not focusing on that? How was I showing up? Was I afraid to have difficult conversations because I was a thought of, because I presumed that my partner would react in a certain way? Or was I being demanding of my partner in a way that wasn't respectful? Was, again, really just like digging deep in terms of how was I showing up? Because if there was any part of it that not led to infidelity but led to a breakdown in the relationship, then of course I played a part in that. I have to have done, I was in the relationship. I have to have played some part in it, no matter what. And again, it's just about reflecting back on that Like how, how, where, what would I would do differently. You know, next time, what would I do going forward, and most of the time, or certainly for me, was just communicate better. I had the thoughts, I had the feelings, I just didn't act upon them.
Speaker 2:I presumed I again think back to that. How, where we started with earlier is that. Well, what are the contract rules within the relationship? Well, we never redescuss those. Well, I would have actively brought those to the surface much more regularly. Are we still aligned? You know in the school that we certified through this concept of the want matches. It's like what parts of me and what parts of my partner are in alignment with each other and what parts aren't. And rather than being resentful of the bits that don't match perfectly, it's being open and and willing to allow my partner to get those parts you know attended to in other ways. So, if there's different interests I'm not talking about going and sleeping with another guy, but you know, like just generally speaking, in life in general, if I think, I remember thinking, when I was probably in my early 20s, that when I was with a girl and if somebody that I'd fallen in love with that like it was, like they completed me, and certainly I had this belief that they completed me, but of course, by saying that and by believing that, it meant that I was dependent on how they showed up.
Speaker 2:I was dependent on how they behaved in relationship, which left me as a victim. Ironically, I left me with no control because I was completely dependent on the actions of somebody else for me to feel, and therefore ultimately behave, in the way that I, you know, wanted to. I was, I wasn't taking full responsibility for my own actions and then, moving through life, I've started to obviously pick that and realize that a that's just not useful and it's not true. I complete me. I'm the only one that's responsible for me.
Speaker 1:Nobody else. That's a tough one. That's a tough lesson for people. It is a tough lesson. Like I find my inner dialogue dating Immediately. I go to boy. I'd be really happy with her. I could feel my nervous system calming as she expresses interest in me. And and then right away, I have this conflict where I'm like whoa, I'm already giving her my power, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it is a fine balance. It's a fine balance between again, it's about taking those things and enjoying them and owning them, versus being dependent on them. I think that's really. The difference is, if you are giving that person the power to the point where you are dependent on getting that power, it's just like a drug, it's no different.
Speaker 2:You'll get the only way you the only way you can feel happy is by norting a line of coke or getting a beer or, you know, eating the chocolate, whatever it is. Whatever it is that you get your fix from, then you want. That's not a good place to be. However, if you can have a relationship with that and be okay that if you don't get it, then you're in a much more secure place. You know people who drink. Even you know it. It don't, it doesn't. I'm not saying that you necessarily have to stop drinking, but if you become dependent on the drink, it's a problem. That's when it's a problem. It's no different in a relationship. You would. If you're dependent on your partner to show up in a very specific way all the time, and just think about how consistent you are as a human being. Generally speaking, we're not that consistent. You know we change every day multiple times per day, yet we expect our partners to show up like perfect Right. Maybe AI makes might solve this problem for us.
Speaker 1:It's gonna make it worse. Yeah, oh God. So to your point, okay. So I heard this theme echoed last night too. Is that when we are able to fulfill ourselves quoting Dr Glover from no More Mr Nice Guy 2, we're able to fulfill ourselves on a sexual level, right Like, let's just be frank about it we're able to fulfill ourselves in terms of entertainment, we're able to offer ourselves self-love and support, we're able to have our own backs and being in a relationship, when we receive those things from the other person, invariably it's better and that's the appeal of a relationship, that's the appeal of companionship. Yeah, but thinking that we can only get it from that source is the problem.
Speaker 2:That's the problem. Yeah, definitely. I think that there are things that you get from a relationship which are undoubtedly amazing and they do feel good, but it's not only because of how we're, what we're making that mean there is something in physical closeness. I do believe there's something in physical connection. However, I also believe that that is both nuanced and individual. So if you're familiar with love languages, without doubt my love language is physical touch. There's just no doubt about it. It's like if I'm close to somebody that I care about, or even like hugging and things like that, it's like for me it genuinely feels like there's electricity moving through my body. There's an actual, some connection, and I don't really understand it. I just know I like it and it feels good. So I'm just, I'm taking it, whereas my partner, for example, she is actually much more about oh sorry, my brain slipped Access of service. Okay, yeah, much more about access, service and the physical. You know, physical touch is like minuscule for her.
Speaker 1:Tell me what access services, again, access services, access service for that person or they want to see be an observation of why should I actually think it's both?
Speaker 2:Okay, how should you think it's both? So a physical question actually. I think I'm not an expert on the field, but maybe it's nuanced.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, maybe it is nuanced, so my interpretation whether this is correct or not, I'm not 100% sure. So, in terms of, like the physical touch, I like to touch and I like to be touched. It's just a physical connection. I like it. I like that, particularly if it's somebody that I'm not just anybody, but particularly with people I care about. You know, hugs with my kids and, and you know, obviously, and just not so much. So what I'm saying is it's not just romantic. And and then the access service.
Speaker 2:Well, my partner likes it if I do things for her. Okay, make her life easier, yes, yep, that's something that she really values. Now, of course, there's a potential based on everything we've just been discussing. There's a potential danger here, in these, in these scenarios. So, if your partner happens to like things being done for them, well, there's two things that can happen. One is you do all of those things just to make that person happy. Convert contract, that's yes, which is dangerous, right? So I do like to do lots of those things, but I do it because I like to do those things.
Speaker 2:And whether I no longer require anything in return. I don't even need a thank you, I don't need anything, doesn't even need to be acknowledged. I just like I'm just, it's somebody, somebody I care about and I want to do things that eases their life, or it just makes me feel good. I just, I choose to feel good. Why not, you know? And yeah, so that's so I'm going to, and that's all there is to it, you know. And if that happens to to make them feel good as well, then great, I'm not dependent on it. And that's the real difference. Cause I think that's where we we can get into a trap, where we just start acting in a way to try and make the other person feel something and then, when they don't give us the thing that we want, we get annoyed.
Speaker 1:And that's the definition of the covert contract is we do things for other people with an unspoken expectation of reciprocation, exactly, and the other person is not a mind reader and the other person does not also function on the same plane. We do, meaning our acts of service that we should be doing from an intrinsic place, they're only seeing them as like it's like thank you, that's very gratifying, like, like whatever Thanks. I appreciate that. But they don't know that we expect a thank you, or they don't know that we expect a backup, or they don't know that we expect sex.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, and I think for guys that's a real challenge to overcome and it takes, you know, it takes some effort and some real intentionality to actually overcome that and recognize that your your motivations, where are your motivations coming from? Now you're really happy with that, you know, when you explore it, and usually people are not happy when they realize where they're coming from. But once you can live into that and relax that and do things just because you want to do it, just do things because it makes you feel good, because anything you can, you can make anything you want to feel good. That's your choice. But yeah, the moment that you are covertly doing it to try and manipulate the other person becomes a problem.
Speaker 2:And you see, there's a lot to have to portrayal because the guy that's been betrayed or all the ones that's been betrayed, either whoever's been betrayed, they have maybe they've been in a position where they want to try and rebuild the relationship and they have got that option of the partner who's betrayed has been, you know, displayed guilt and like maybe it's been one off and they're really sorry and they're showing remorse and they're doing that bit to try, and you know, resolve the situation. But then these underlying expectations that start to build on the betrayed, betrayed side of well, because you hurt me, because you did this thing to me, then I get to expect more from you. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:You should do the big gestures Right and you pay me in some way. It's like hang on. No, that's just as dangerous, in fact. Actually, it's just going to create a bigger divide. It's probably one of the contributing factors that created the divide in the first place.
Speaker 1:It builds a lot of resentment because it's the equivalent of indentured servitude, right? You have a debt to me that now you have to repay, exactly Right? Yeah, so that's a really good point. Is that infidelity?
Speaker 2:is not a debt. Oh no, of course not, right. It's just an action like anything else, and it's only the meaning that we give it. It gives it any weight at all. It's just a word. It's in the dictionary. Go and look it up and that's fascinating. It doesn't mean anything. It's just a word, and again it's so. It's still open to interpretation. It's like what we mentioned earlier what defines an affair? Is it a one-night stand, or is it 15 years of messaging but no intimacy?
Speaker 1:Right, it's a model on Instagram?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, what is it? It's like on the episode of Friends. Are we allowed to have the laminated list of your five celebrities that I forget why or what. It was the passes, yeah. So what truly does define those boundaries? And again, these conversations often aren't had, they're just assumed.
Speaker 1:When you start working with men, from assuming that they come to you, they're attempting to resolve their experience with infidelity, they're considering separation, divorce or they've already done it. You're working through with the issues that have come up in terms of self-awareness and behavior and trauma-informed behavior, like trying to change those patterns, I would assume, and those beliefs. And then are you also helping them create a path forward with future relationships and setting realistic expectations with partners, communicating those, yeah?
Speaker 2:So, again, different with everybody, of course, so the common things that bring people to me is the betrayal, is the infidelity. That's often the reason that we start working together. However, the time span from infidelity to working with me varies significantly, so the two extremes that I'm going to demonstrate is one I have a client who discovered a man message on her husband's phone six hours before she signed up and worked with me, and the other extreme was it was 28 years since the affair and they've been together ever since. They stayed together. So people are often at very, very different stages and, of course, some stay, some don't stay.
Speaker 2:I've had some clients actually go through the divorce process whilst working with me, so everything's different. So what I would say, though, is, with any major life event like infidelity and I think infidelity is definitely up there with being one of the most painful experiences that a human can go through it's that betrayal, that loss of trust. It's extremely, extremely painful, and it really can be a traumatic experience, because it doesn't create trauma for everybody, but it can be a traumatic experience and have very long lasting effects, particularly if it's buried and it's not really processed and dealt with and explored and understood, which is why it can last for years and years, probably for the rest of someone's life, if they don't process it properly.
Speaker 1:It's like a kernel of resentment the whole time.
Speaker 2:And often it can be just inclusive thoughts that just replaying the same thing over and over again.
Speaker 2:This tends to be more with guys than women, not exclusively, but they're just envisaging their partner with the affair partner and it's like an image that can't get out of the head and their mind just goes on cycle. So we start working on how to try and break that down and that's it. It's a gradual process. There's never one quick fix. What works for one person doesn't work for the other person and vice versa. So it's about trying to find the best pattern for the individual and meeting them exactly where they're at. But in all cases, what we're trying to do is we're trying to use this pain, this discomfort and this unforeseen and unwanted circumstance, this situation, and using that as fuel and a catalyst to drive towards something very specific in the future, and whether that be to rebuild their marriage, get a new relationship, launch their first business or dream whatever it is that they're planning to do, it's using this and actually taking all of that negative energy or unwanted energy and popping it in the wanted energy pot and driving it in that direction.
Speaker 1:That is beautiful. That's a succinct way to say what you do, luke. I think we can probably wrap it up today, but I love having conversations with you, man. You look at coaching from this place that's about 15 degrees over from where I coach from. Some of the men that I coach have been through infidelity, but it's almost exclusively about how do I concentrate on the relationship with my children and anything that gets in the way of that relationship and resolve infidelity issues could be one of them. That's something also that I'm very curious about. Thanks, man, anything more to add.
Speaker 2:It's been an absolute pleasure. Now I think there's well. It's one of those things we keep talking forever about.
Speaker 1:That's it for today's episode. Hey, did you know that I work with 101 clients? Did you know that I offer group coaching? Go ahead and go to my website and go to the page labeled how to work with me, and you'll find all the details there. You can also send me an email or you can sign up for a free discovery call. Finally, you can follow me on Instagram at Jay Davies Rush. Go ahead and send me a message and tell me what questions you have or what topics you'd like to discuss on the next podcast.
